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| Brace Installation Order For Top http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=3319 |
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| Author: | SStallings [ Sun Sep 25, 2005 12:20 am ] |
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I'm getting ready to brace the top for guitar no. 3 and have been thinking about the order that the braces should be installed. Cumpiano's book provides the following order: 1. Bridge patch 2. Upper Transversal Graft 3. Finger and Soundhole Braces 4. Upper and Lower Face Braces 5. X Braces Some sort of logic suggests, to me at least, that the X braces should be installed first since most of the other braces "extend" (for lack of a better term) off of them. On the other hand, carving the other braces would seem to be more difficult if the X braces were installed first. Are there other considerations? What does everyone else do? |
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| Author: | Tim McKnight [ Sun Sep 25, 2005 12:29 am ] |
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Here is my order and I brace the entire top at the same time: 1 - X brace and intersection cap 2 - Finger braces 3 - Bridge plate 4 - Lower tone bars 5 - Upper transverse brace 6 - Sound hole braces I no longer let any braces into the X and feel this frees the top up more. |
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| Author: | Sprockett [ Sun Sep 25, 2005 12:36 am ] |
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I pretty much do what Tim does, letting into the braces is not a good idea in my opinion anyway (that's another topic). I will also carve my X-Braces close to final before I put the others on, they are the hardest to carve for me (I laminate in a thin strip of Carbon fiber so they can be a pain). The reason C&N do the bridge plate first is so you can clamp it down evenly, just make a caul and it will be fine. -Paul- |
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| Author: | Paul Schulte [ Sun Sep 25, 2005 2:25 am ] |
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I still use Cumpiano's method and the reason is as he states, it's easier to carve the smaller braces before the x braces are glued. Then again I only pre-shape the radii on the gluing surfaces and carve the rest by hand. Heck it's one of my favorite tasks carving those braces in place. 
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| Author: | Cocephus [ Sun Sep 25, 2005 2:32 am ] |
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Does anyone tuck the ends of the braces under the x-braces, like one would on the kerfing, for example? |
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| Author: | Robbie O'Brien [ Sun Sep 25, 2005 3:01 am ] |
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something else to think about... How many here run their braces all the way out to the kerfing? For example, I do this only on the x-brace and upper braces. Everything else stops short of the kerfing. |
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| Author: | Dave White [ Sun Sep 25, 2005 3:45 am ] |
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My order is: - Soundhole reinforcing plate (same wood as top but "cross grain") - bridge plate - X braces and cap - behind bridgeplate brace - lower tone bars - 'A' frame braces that go from the upper part of the X braces into the neck block (making a pentangle shape of the reinforcing soundhole plate) - upper bout brace (usually ties into the top of my X braces and the 'A' frame brace) - finger braces I carve each before the next goes on, with final "tuning" at the end. Where they touch, my braces are just butt-joined (apart from the top of the X braces and the upper bout brace). X braces and lower tone bars are notched into the linings (although the lower tone bars are almost down to the top here). Finger braces stop short. |
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| Author: | arvey [ Sun Sep 25, 2005 4:14 am ] |
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I do X Brace, Lower brace, Upper Brace, finger braces including under the fretboard and then soundhole and finally the Bridge plate. I only let in the X brace and Upper tone brace. I radius the bottom of the braces befor glueing but all other shaping is done after everything is glued on. I glue everything except the bridge plate on at the same time using a go bar deck but I have a Plexi glass template I lay over the soundboard to line everything up and then glue the braces on. Makes it quick. |
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| Author: | stan thomison [ Sun Sep 25, 2005 5:34 am ] |
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I used to set in the X first, that has changed and now do the bridge plate first. I found with that done and set, the X braces fit up next to them and with good placement. Just new way of learning things and this will be easier for me. I now also use a finger brace template like on Taylor site. Not a right way or wrong way to do it. I am building a jig in which there are pin placement for ends of the X braces to seat. There are placement holes in the jig as in the bridge plate so can set a caul on top of plate with pins and then clamp down. Seams easier to place all of the other braces off of the bridge plate. Same kind of jig does the placement for the back ladder braces |
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| Author: | stan thomison [ Sun Sep 25, 2005 5:36 am ] |
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I now also only tuck the X and then thin others down to kerf. I may go back and do all of them, just less kerf to rout tucks for. I run the tall shoulder brace to the side and then just glue some kerf on top of that and to side. |
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| Author: | Tim McKnight [ Sun Sep 25, 2005 8:36 am ] |
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I only tuck the X ends and upper transverse brace under the linings. All other braces are butted to the X and not let into it, nor do they extend to the linings. |
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| Author: | Dave Rector [ Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:53 pm ] |
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I do everything the same way that Tim has described. Same sequence, same braces tucked, etc. |
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| Author: | LanceK [ Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:11 am ] |
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I do the upper traverse brace first, then the X, I only tuck the upper X and traverse, everything else is tapered short of the kerfing. I also notch into the lower X for the two tone bars, but not the finger braces. Personally I feel a little bit better about the whole construct, (X and tone bars) knowing there all together, sort of like the frame of an umbrella, I feel that the more the frame acts as (one) the better the transmission of string energy throughout the top. That said, I could be full of bull hooey! 
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| Author: | Pwoolson [ Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:13 am ] |
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Here's my order for just another perspective. 1) double X 2) soundhole patch and bridge plate 3) Finger braces 4) transverse brace 5) soundhole side braces. |
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| Author: | Kevin Gallagher [ Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:31 am ] |
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The "X" braces going down first is the most practical way to go. I use a vacuum clamping system so everything is on the top when it is set into the box for clamping, but if I were free bracing, i would recommend the very same sequence that Tim listed above. Cumpiano's placement of the bridge plate first always bothered me and made no sense along with about two dozen other points in his book...but that could be another thread in itself. The "X" braces are the most functional and critical components in the top bracing system and it only makes sense to have everything work off of them and be placed in accordance to their final location. Regards, Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars |
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| Author: | tippie53 [ Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:53 am ] |
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Bracing isn't rocket science it is actully a logical placemnet. Many of you have radius dishes. If you don't you should think about it. I radius my braces to match my build. 28 foot mostly. I radius all of the X and keep the top truss rod brace flat. I set the bridge plate first as this is the critical part. If the plate is off everything is off strucurally. Then the X-tonebars and tendidrill ( finger braces ). I glue them all in at the same time but this is my layout procedure. |
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| Author: | stan thomison [ Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:04 am ] |
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Guess reason Bourgeois does it this way and why I changed to bridge plate 1st. My reason are now same as John's and same reason explained to me. The bridge sets where have to go with the math on nut to 12th X 2 plus a little. If bridge off,everything off, so I was re taught to set the bridge first and make location X of those and then rest off the X. All braces there are also done by vacum also. Takes about 8 min in press/clamp to get the thing solid and same amount of time for the X's are set, then go and do all of the rest. About 30 minutes for an entire top is ready for glue cleanup, and then voicing. Make any sense HERE? |
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| Author: | LanceK [ Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:36 am ] |
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My problem with laying the Bridge patch first is that then you must make your X angle fit the bridge plate perfectly rather than the other way around, which has be easer. If you lay out your bracing on the top first, you should have no problem getting everything where it needs to be. |
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| Author: | RussellR [ Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:47 am ] |
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Lance most of the people I have seen do it patch first notch the bridge plate under the X. I am with the X first brigade, only because I find that the most comfortable method for me. |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:23 am ] |
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I'm one of the evidently few people who believes in inletting brace ends into other braces. I spent some years doing repairs, and got pretty tired of braces popping loose, so... I put down the bridge plate first: as has been mentioned everthing else locates off the bridge. Then I put down the smaller braces. I'm using 'double-X' bracing these days, and the 'finger' braces are simply extensions of the lower X (the 'tone bars'). The tone bars are taken down to about 2-2.5mm high where they go under the X. Similarly I put down my A braces that run from the upper arms of the X under the shoulder brace and inlet into the neck block: I don't want that puppy to move. The lower ends of the A braces and the tone bars/fingers go under the X, which goes down last, often one leg at a time. I do _not_ inlet the bridge patch: it's enough of a pain getting that thing up if you have to! I do shave away the front and back edges so that they are somewhat flexible and hopefully don't peel up as easiy by themselves. The only braces I inlet into the liners are the shoulder brace and the large X braces at both ends. The tone bars/finger braces get shaved down to nothing so that they can flex with the top. The A brace, as stated, inlets into the neck block. One thing that should be made clear to all beginners looking for advice is that each of the systems that the more experienced guys use is the result of a lot of thinking and trial and error. There are many considerations involved in any of this; tonal, structural, and even esthetic. Different ways of working make it easier or harder to do certain things, too. There is, so far as I know, no 'perfect' system that solves all of the problems, although some systems obviously don't work as well as others in certain ways. You have to weigh all of the factors and think about what's most important to you when you come up with your sequence, or anything else on the guitar, for that matter. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:36 am ] |
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I tuck the fingers and tone bars |
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| Author: | stan thomison [ Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:19 am ] |
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Lance I know what saying about the X angle at plate. What I do is make the bridge plate angled at each end with angle set I guess best way describe it is triangled at each end. That way the X's butt right up to the ends of the plate and have whatever splay (is that right term) set. Thing I found with shop setup is that the jig is for all of the models from big jumbo to 12 fret 000 and only thing that changes is the bridge placement. Take that back on the 12fret there is some minor changes in where placement of the jig pins are |
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| Author: | tippie53 [ Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:25 am ] |
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I HATE INLETTED BRACES. Yes That is how I really feel. They can be a pain to repair. Oh well so much for me. Remember that when you set the bridge plates location first I have all dry fits then once all the notches for the X braces are made then in all the glue . With the scale length determinig locations it is the top that influences most to the sound of the guitar. john hall |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:01 am ] |
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I HATE NON-INLETTED BRACES. They need to be repaired so much. ;) The worst ones are the Gibsons, where they taper the braces down to almost nothing at the ends, and then count on the liners to crush. The problem is that as often as not its the brace end that crushes, and you get a stress riser there. as soon as there's any impact or the humidity changes much you have the start of a peeled up brace. All braces, as far as I'm concerned, should either be well inletted or taper out to nothing (and I mean nothing) before they intersect something like the side or another brace. |
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| Author: | rich altieri [ Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:21 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Tim McKnight] Here is my order and I brace the entire top at the same time: 1 - X brace and intersection cap 2 - Finger braces 3 - Bridge plate 4 - Lower tone bars 5 - Upper transverse brace 6 - Sound hole braces I no longer let any braces into the X and feel this frees the top up more.[/QUOTE] Tim, any chance you could show a picture closeup of your approach relative to not connecting the braces to the x brace??? |
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